Gary Avers writes for several songwriting organizations and websites. This interview with ZiG originally appeared on SongwriterInfoPage.com. in April 2003.

working with artists....

Gary: Before we talk about producing independent artists, I want to ask you about your work for many years doing song demos. How did you get into that?

Zig: Well, through the years I've written for several of the big publishers and so I met a lot of writers. I always cut my own demos on the songs I wrote, and then I started helping other writers with their demos, until I got really busy with all that.

Gary: How elaborate is a demo?

Zig: It varies...anywhere from a few acoustic guitars and a writer who's not a singer singing his own vocal to....6 or 7 players and a great, hired studio singer and bgvs, like a major label CD. In Nashville many demos could be masters. I've cut some demos that sounded better than masters for less than ten percent of the cost. I've had the producer on the major label copy our demo when they cut the song on someone's record.

Gary: Do you play on these demos?

Zig: I sometimes play acoustic guitar, electric guitar, piano and keyboards and some percussion like shaker and tambourine and congas. I'm also a bass player but I don't end up doing that very often. And I used to play drums too but I would not feel very comfortable playing the main groove on a recording now - sometimes I overdub some crashes and fills.

Gary: You've also produced many CD projects with various artists. What does producing an artist involve?

Zig: It involves me learning who they are, and what they want to say, and how they want to sound. Then helping them decide on the songs - If they wrote the songs, that can mean listening to 20 or 30 of their songs and helping pick the best 10 or 12 to record. Or if they don't write, that means finding songs or even writing something new for the project.

Gary: And what are the guidelines for picking songs?

Zig: What fits the musical style, and what the artist's voice sounds good singing, and what the songs say - do they say something the artist feels good saying?

Gary: Ok, you've agreed on the songs, what else do you do?

Zig: Well, sometimes I play the songs and work with them - usually with the artist to get the right key, and tempo, and song structure - sometimes it's simple and obvious and other times you can make a song more special with the arrangement. Next I would start to line up musicians and schedule the session. If the artist is a band then it's just picking a date. If it's a solo artist this could mean using the artist's band or session players.

Gary: Is the recording always done at one of your studios?

Zig: Usually. Through the years I've done projects at most of the big studios in Nashville, several in Dallas and Ft Worth, and a few in Muscle Shoals, Austin, and Orlando. So I'm open to the idea of working whereever the artist wants to. I've even done a few things where I went to the artist's home studio because it was where they were most comfortable and it was less expensive for them, but they still wanted a producer to have a second opinion so they wouldn't get lost in their own little world. But usually for the kind of projects that I produce I can give them the best price and the most value for their money by going to my own studio, 'cause I don't have to always watch the clock and keep track of every hour and I don't have to worry as much about having to fit into someone else's available schedule.

Gary: What kind of artist do you work with?

Zig: Well, as far as style or genre anything and everything - rock, bluegrass, blues, pop, folk, country, jazz, gospel, latin, r&b...I haven't done much rap, but I actually have done a little - a few song demos.

Gary: Are they independent artists?

Zig: Some are on small indy labels, some on their own label or no label. Usually they perform regularly or occasionally and want a CD to sell at their gigs. Some pitch themselves to the majors.

Gary: Do you shop them to the major labels?

Zig: Most of the artists I work with have already ruled out going to a major label for a variety of reasons - their style is not mainstream - folk, blues, bluegrass, ...or they've already been on a major and hated it or they got dropped, ...or they are just into being independent because they're not willing to conform and compromise in the ways that are necessary to be on a major. Sometimes they're 40 years old and they don't feel that they are an artist that a major label would be intersted in trying to market even if they liked the music. Sometimes they are making the CD to document and present their songs. They are not really a performer - the CD is more of a promotional tool for the songs.

Gary: With all the people you know, could you shop an artist to the major labels?

Zig: Yes, I've gotten a few people signed before - I've had artists on 3 different major labels and I've done demos for a few others, but I've never had anything that was released.

Gary: That must be frustrating, what happened?

Zig: Sometimes the artist self-destructed or wasn't willing to bend to the label's vision, ...or the label just had too much going on to pay attention to every project and we weren't as mainstream as someone else, ...or the deal gets to be about the artist's whole team - the management, the publishing, the production, and there are a lot of things that can go wrong. It IS frustrating, but I'm still open to working with an artist that wants to make a run at it if they really have what it takes.

Gary: Why should a band or artist use a producer?

Zig: Mainly to make them sound good and make their CD sound good. But a good producer can help you with the whole CD making process - planning, scheduling, goals, ...help with picking and arranging songs, finding and communicating with players, the sound of the recording, ...keeping the direction of the project on track, mixing, mastering, ...sometimes even some input or ideas on how to market and promote the CD when it's finished.

Take into consideration that as far as the musical, 'in the studio' recording and mixing part of the project - I've done it thousands of times over 15 years, so I've seen most of the problems that can arise and I know how to solve them....tuning, timing, feel, getting great vocals, what mics to use, drum sounds, guitar sounds, background vocals, etc, etc. An artist may have some studio experience or they might be doing a project for the first time, so it helps them to do it with a producer who's been through the process start-to-finish many times and learned from each session. And I can also be helpful in the other parts of the process like planning, budget, packaging, artwork as well.

Another good reason to use a producer is to have another opinion, outside the band, independent and objective from the artist. I want your CD to sound great, but I'm not inside your head hearing it from your biased point of view. It's very helpful for an artist to have a second opinion - someone to bounce ideas off of. A good producer can see and hear things in you that you don't always notice, and then bring them out, or not. A good producer can bring out the best in you and help hide or improve your weaknesses.

Gary: What makes Zig a good producer?

Zig: Well, I'm a writer - I've written for the big and small publishers, and I've written very commercial songs and also jazz and folk and non-commercial songs, so I have a good grasp on what a 'hit' song is - and I like songs that have substance and good content.

Also, I'm an engineer....and I'm a musician. So I know how to communicate with the engineer about the sound, or with the musicians about the parts and arrangements...

....and I can relate to the artist as well because I've played a bunch of gigs and I know what it's like to perform in front of crowds...

....and I have many years of experience playing and recording all kinds of styles of music...

....and I have a great group of players that I can call on to get the sounds and play the parts I need to make a song or a project come out sounding however we want...

....and, I don't know, that's all I can think of right now - my brain's tired - but that's plenty....

Gary: Do you have a style or a sound that you do best or that you're known for?

Zig: I don't really have a sound that I try to go for all the time. I think my goal is to find out who the artist is and then help the artist achieve a sound and style that they feel represents them the way they want to come across. Sometimes that final product can be a little bit of MY version of who I think they are, but mostly it's who THEY think they are - or hopefully it's who they KNOW they are - and it's so obvious that we both know who they are. When an artist is really solid on who they are then I just have to help them capture it and I feel like I'm good at that. If they're uncertain or confused I have to try on different things to let us both learn what fits and what doesn't - once we know what works we can zero in on it.

I know what you mean, though. Some producers have a sound, like Baby Face, where everything he does sounds very similar - the instruments, the bgvs, the verbs he uses. And that's cool...he's good and his sound is good and he does that on purpose. The only thing I do that's 'my thing' is my 'wide-pan' mixes.

Gary: What are 'wide-pan' mixes?

Zig: It's an approach to mixing that I started doing a while back. It was inspired by old 2-track and 4-track and 8-track recordings from the 60's. I love the separation and the roominess of those old mixes - the Beatles' Rubber Soul and Revolver, Aretha Franklin, the Doors' 'Light my Fire', Hendrix, Coltrane. In that time period a lot of records were mixed so that all the drums were on one side, or all the horns on one side, or all the vocals, and so on. Well, the emptiness on the opposite side of what's going on has a roominess and a realness that is lost in most of today's mixes.

When I first started doing them we sometimes called them 'retro' mixes because they were inspired by those old records, but now it's become just another approach to mixing a song and there's nothing really 'retro' about it. It doesn't sound old and I don't try to make it sound old. In fact, the result is that it has a very new and fresh and different effect on the listener because it doesn't sound like every other recording that you hear.

Gary: Do you use this kind of mixing on the artists you work with?

Zig: I used it on the mix with Frankie Moreno on a CD that was kind of 'retro' - the style of the songs was old rock and roll and old r&b. It came out great and I've gotten a lot of comments and compliments on it. I've also mixed a few song demos for a few people 'wide', but again it was because they were looking for an effect to give the song an older feel.

Recently a group, Smith Street Compass, is wanting me to mix their entire CD 'wide' - and they are very modern - like a combination of Vertical Horizon, Radio Head, Pink Floyd, U2 and throw in a little Neil Young. I'm actually looking forward to doing the mix.

So, now I'm starting to tell the artists that I work with about it and let them hear the potential. I even offer to do 2 mixes - normal and 'wide'.

615-320-6071      zig@zigworld.com      214-354-8401